Comments on: What do I think about the Emerging Church? http://www.thoughtsfromchris.com/2009/01/27/what-do-i-think-about-the-emerging-church/ Thoughts from Chris Norman Wed, 07 Sep 2011 17:25:14 -0600 http://wordpress.org/?v=2.8.4 hourly 1 By: Elaine A http://www.thoughtsfromchris.com/2009/01/27/what-do-i-think-about-the-emerging-church/comment-page-1/#comment-806 Elaine A Sun, 03 May 2009 20:23:25 +0000 http://www.thoughtsfromchris.com/?p=140#comment-806 Chris, I so appreciated your comments on the EC. God has certainly blessed you with the gift of teaching and communication. I have done a lot of research on this movement. I have real concerns about some of the leaders nationwide in this movement. They have crossed the line and are teaching outright heresy. There are those who deny the substitionary atonement of Jesus. Universalism is now acceptable in some of the Emergent circles. Hell is now being denied by some. Some deny that homosexuality is even sin. I would agree we can glean from other teachers and movements. No one has the corner on truth. But "some "of these teachers are heretics who the bible warns of. They are attacking "foundational" truths of Christianity. They certainly teach some truth but their foundation has crumbled. There is no baby left in the bathwater with heretics. I would say, the baby died. I remember a Pastor from years back saying....error will always come into the Body of Christ riding piggy back on the back of truth. I believe there is a lot of truth in that. Chris, you are a great Pastor and a gifted teacher of God's Word. You are so sweet, I don't understand how anyone could attack you. Chris, I so appreciated your comments on the EC. God has certainly blessed you with the gift of teaching and communication.
I have done a lot of research on this movement.
I have real concerns about some of the leaders nationwide in this movement. They have crossed the line and are teaching outright heresy.
There are those who deny the substitionary atonement of Jesus. Universalism is now acceptable in some of the Emergent circles.
Hell is now being denied by some. Some deny that homosexuality is even sin.
I would agree we can glean from other teachers and movements. No one has the corner on truth. But “some “of these teachers are heretics who the bible warns of. They are attacking “foundational” truths of Christianity.
They certainly teach some truth but their foundation has crumbled. There is no baby left in the bathwater with heretics. I would say, the baby died.
I remember a Pastor from years back saying….error will always come into the Body of Christ riding piggy back on the back of truth. I believe there is a lot of truth in that.
Chris, you are a great Pastor and a gifted teacher of God’s Word.
You are so sweet, I don’t understand how anyone could attack you.

]]> By: Scott L http://www.thoughtsfromchris.com/2009/01/27/what-do-i-think-about-the-emerging-church/comment-page-1/#comment-799 Scott L Wed, 29 Apr 2009 13:25:13 +0000 http://www.thoughtsfromchris.com/?p=140#comment-799 Thanks, Chris, for pointing out that we can glean some helpful meaning from a movement without having to agree with some of the outspoken "leaders" that get quoted all too often. I identify a great deal with the emerging movement, but that doesn't mean I am 100% in line with some of the things I hear about it. That's the problem with movements like these, they are a bit dirty and not quite as cut-and-dry as many would like. Thanks, Chris, for pointing out that we can glean some helpful meaning from a movement without having to agree with some of the outspoken “leaders” that get quoted all too often. I identify a great deal with the emerging movement, but that doesn’t mean I am 100% in line with some of the things I hear about it.

That’s the problem with movements like these, they are a bit dirty and not quite as cut-and-dry as many would like.

]]> By: Chris Norman http://www.thoughtsfromchris.com/2009/01/27/what-do-i-think-about-the-emerging-church/comment-page-1/#comment-713 Chris Norman Mon, 02 Feb 2009 17:14:29 +0000 http://www.thoughtsfromchris.com/?p=140#comment-713 Thanks for the comments on this post. Let me respond to the three of you: JS - I think your experience is similar to many who have grown up in the church and have experienced leaders from many different movements. It is very encouraging to hear how God has given you the wisdom now to discern more clearly and not just trust what church leaders teach. Carrie - I do think you are right. Not all movements are created equal. Some will have more truth than others. I think our goal is still the same. Whatever truth there is, let's allow that to challenge us. In the health and wealth movement, as an example, it is certainly true that God blesses people in Scripture materially and physically. There are numerous examples we could turn to. However, those examples, when not in concert with other examples in Scripture when God doesn't bless that way, can lead us to some unhealthy conclusions and perspectives. We can acknowledge the truth within the movement, be challenged by it, but avoid the conclusions many in the movement make. Regarding the EC movement, you say you feel very uneasy about how some historic doctrine is handled. The point, to me, on this is that this is only true of some of the more extreme and outspoken leaders of this movement. I can easily look past those comments or leaders and see a great deal of truth and helpful correction for the church. I don't get overly hung up on the extreme statements or teachings. I just believe they are wrong and look for the nuggets of truth in spite of them. As an example, there have been many times in my life of ministry that people have attacked me personally or my leadership. Sometimes the criticisms are legitimate and sometimes they aren't. Sometimes I get criticized in a wrong way, and people have taken things I have said or done out of context. When they attack me, I get very defensive, I question their motives, and because they have taken things out of context I know that their "underlying assumptions" are wrong. (This has not happened in a while but I am sure you know that I mean.) Earlier in my ministry, I could only get defensive and angry at these unfair and unsubstantiated attacks and criticisms on me. I would completely dismiss them. As I have matured, however, I have learned to look for nuggets of truth, among the criticisms. And guess what, there are almost always some nuggets in there. I have to set aside the things I completely disagree with, acknowledge they are wrong, and avoid throwing the whole thing out - because if I do, I will usually miss some aspect of truth in the criticism that God could have used to shape me. I think these same principles hold true with regard to movements that we may believe are predominantly wrong. Let's not just focus on the things we disagree with - let's spend more time focused on those nuggets that God can use in our life and the life of his church. John - I think you are right when you mention this is very similar to denominational ties. Anytime we rally around any one leader, author, pastor, or otherwise, I believe we risk another splinter movement. Thanks for the comments on this post. Let me respond to the three of you:

JS – I think your experience is similar to many who have grown up in the church and have experienced leaders from many different movements.

It is very encouraging to hear how God has given you the wisdom now to discern more clearly and not just trust what church leaders teach.

Carrie – I do think you are right. Not all movements are created equal. Some will have more truth than others. I think our goal is still the same. Whatever truth there is, let’s allow that to challenge us. In the health and wealth movement, as an example, it is certainly true that God blesses people in Scripture materially and physically. There are numerous examples we could turn to. However, those examples, when not in concert with other examples in Scripture when God doesn’t bless that way, can lead us to some unhealthy conclusions and perspectives. We can acknowledge the truth within the movement, be challenged by it, but avoid the conclusions many in the movement make.

Regarding the EC movement, you say you feel very uneasy about how some historic doctrine is handled. The point, to me, on this is that this is only true of some of the more extreme and outspoken leaders of this movement. I can easily look past those comments or leaders and see a great deal of truth and helpful correction for the church. I don’t get overly hung up on the extreme statements or teachings. I just believe they are wrong and look for the nuggets of truth in spite of them.

As an example, there have been many times in my life of ministry that people have attacked me personally or my leadership. Sometimes the criticisms are legitimate and sometimes they aren’t. Sometimes I get criticized in a wrong way, and people have taken things I have said or done out of context. When they attack me, I get very defensive, I question their motives, and because they have taken things out of context I know that their “underlying assumptions” are wrong. (This has not happened in a while but I am sure you know that I mean.)

Earlier in my ministry, I could only get defensive and angry at these unfair and unsubstantiated attacks and criticisms on me. I would completely dismiss them. As I have matured, however, I have learned to look for nuggets of truth, among the criticisms. And guess what, there are almost always some nuggets in there. I have to set aside the things I completely disagree with, acknowledge they are wrong, and avoid throwing the whole thing out – because if I do, I will usually miss some aspect of truth in the criticism that God could have used to shape me.

I think these same principles hold true with regard to movements that we may believe are predominantly wrong. Let’s not just focus on the things we disagree with – let’s spend more time focused on those nuggets that God can use in our life and the life of his church.

John – I think you are right when you mention this is very similar to denominational ties. Anytime we rally around any one leader, author, pastor, or otherwise, I believe we risk another splinter movement.

]]> By: John http://www.thoughtsfromchris.com/2009/01/27/what-do-i-think-about-the-emerging-church/comment-page-1/#comment-712 John Fri, 30 Jan 2009 19:19:25 +0000 http://www.thoughtsfromchris.com/?p=140#comment-712 To take a broader look at this point even, shall we talk about the Baptist movement, the Methodist movement, the Presbyterian movement, etc. What are any movements or denominations but a platform of beliefs that Christians rally around? This has been going on for thousands of years. It is evident in the religious and political divisions within Jewish culture pre-dating Christ and even exists in the New Testament church: "...One of you says, 'I follow Paul'; another, 'I follow Apollos'; another, 'I follow Cephas'; still another, 'I follow Christ'." -1Cor 1:12 We are all people with an imperfect understanding of God and His Word which is unchanging truth. The EC (as I understand it) basically holds that God's Word must be interpreted and applied to today's culture so that it is applicable to me. The extreme here is that we throw out all religious tradition in light of this and begin making up our own truth. I figure most movements and denominations start(ed) out with individuals who had a specific and legitimate concern with doctrinal issues in the church proper. Usually, these individuals where genuinely seeking the truth of God and were willing to step out in faith against the cultural and religious norm. The problem is, people often rally around a leader to create a movement, and quite often the movement becomes bigger than the original idea that started it. Extremes begin to surface and... well, thus the topic. I think Chris has verbalized something that I have been pondering since we moved to town in July. I was raised Methodist/Baptist/Non-denom, have experienced Assemblies of God and now work within the Lutheran Church Missouri Synod. Through all of this, I have seen very positive ideas and doctrines as well as negative aspects as well. Denomination brings with it tradition and doctrine - both firm foundations to stand on when it comes to what to believe. Denomination also brings with it rigidity that sometimes may ignore a changing culture, and therefore slowly lose relevance for all but the staunchest followers. How can one body have so many divisions? Can we as Christians take the good parts from each of these movements and denominations to truly seek God's truth, or are we just creating our own movement if we do? To take a broader look at this point even, shall we talk about the Baptist movement, the Methodist movement, the Presbyterian movement, etc. What are any movements or denominations but a platform of beliefs that Christians rally around? This has been going on for thousands of years. It is evident in the religious and political divisions within Jewish culture pre-dating Christ and even exists in the New Testament church:

“…One of you says, ‘I follow Paul’; another, ‘I follow Apollos’; another, ‘I follow Cephas’; still another, ‘I follow Christ’.” -1Cor 1:12

We are all people with an imperfect understanding of God and His Word which is unchanging truth. The EC (as I understand it) basically holds that God’s Word must be interpreted and applied to today’s culture so that it is applicable to me. The extreme here is that we throw out all religious tradition in light of this and begin making up our own truth.

I figure most movements and denominations start(ed) out with individuals who had a specific and legitimate concern with doctrinal issues in the church proper. Usually, these individuals where genuinely seeking the truth of God and were willing to step out in faith against the cultural and religious norm. The problem is, people often rally around a leader to create a movement, and quite often the movement becomes bigger than the original idea that started it. Extremes begin to surface and… well, thus the topic.

I think Chris has verbalized something that I have been pondering since we moved to town in July. I was raised Methodist/Baptist/Non-denom, have experienced Assemblies of God and now work within the Lutheran Church Missouri Synod. Through all of this, I have seen very positive ideas and doctrines as well as negative aspects as well. Denomination brings with it tradition and doctrine – both firm foundations to stand on when it comes to what to believe. Denomination also brings with it rigidity that sometimes may ignore a changing culture, and therefore slowly lose relevance for all but the staunchest followers. How can one body have so many divisions? Can we as Christians take the good parts from each of these movements and denominations to truly seek God’s truth, or are we just creating our own movement if we do?

]]> By: carrie http://www.thoughtsfromchris.com/2009/01/27/what-do-i-think-about-the-emerging-church/comment-page-1/#comment-709 carrie Thu, 29 Jan 2009 19:20:26 +0000 http://www.thoughtsfromchris.com/?p=140#comment-709 Some thoughts and/or questions regarding movements: Would you say that not all movements are created equal? As I consider the movements you listed, some of them strike me as being more troublesome as others. Health and wealth, for example, I would consider more damaging than, say, parachurches. The Emerging Church is harder to pin down, because it has so many “streams”, so it makes saving the baby while still tossing out the bathwater rather complicated. What I have appreciated about the EC is the thoughtful look they have taken at the culture. Fundamentalism largely ignored the culture until the 80’s –then I suppose it decided to come of the closet, form the Moral Majority and politicize godliness, if that were possible. So I’m definitely down with the redemptive approach toward culture (this includes incorporating the arts, which the church has largely ignored for at least half a century). But I have to say that I feel VERY queasy about some of the EC’s mish-mashing of historic Christian doctrine. It’s hard for me to get behind a movement that seems to toy around so brazenly with ideas like open theism, universalism and every perspective of atonement except the primary one--penal substitution (a.k.a “cosmic child abuse”—according to some)---without which there IS no cultural redemption! Talk about an adventure in missing the point!!! Anyway, all that to ask, how is something like this really to be handled? You said, of course, that unbiblical statements should be called out, but I wonder if that is enough. I’m concerned about the underlying assumptions that are the springboard for such statements. You mentioned that your own presuppositions have been challenged (which I know is good, we all need that), but I’m wondering about theirs! The negative (in my view) aspects of the EC I believe could cause more damage in the long run than good aspects will help. Just some thoughts . . . Some thoughts and/or questions regarding movements: Would you say that not all movements are created equal? As I consider the movements you listed, some of them strike me as being more troublesome as others. Health and wealth, for example, I would consider more damaging than, say, parachurches. The Emerging Church is harder to pin down, because it has so many “streams”, so it makes saving the baby while still tossing out the bathwater rather complicated. What I have appreciated about the EC is the thoughtful look they have taken at the culture. Fundamentalism largely ignored the culture until the 80’s –then I suppose it decided to come of the closet, form the Moral Majority and politicize godliness, if that were possible. So I’m definitely down with the redemptive approach toward culture (this includes incorporating the arts, which the church has largely ignored for at least half a century). But I have to say that I feel VERY queasy about some of the EC’s mish-mashing of historic Christian doctrine. It’s hard for me to get behind a movement that seems to toy around so brazenly with ideas like open theism, universalism and every perspective of atonement except the primary one–penal substitution (a.k.a “cosmic child abuse”—according to some)—without which there IS no cultural redemption! Talk about an adventure in missing the point!!! Anyway, all that to ask, how is something like this really to be handled? You said, of course, that unbiblical statements should be called out, but I wonder if that is enough. I’m concerned about the underlying assumptions that are the springboard for such statements. You mentioned that your own presuppositions have been challenged (which I know is good, we all need that), but I’m wondering about theirs! The negative (in my view) aspects of the EC I believe could cause more damage in the long run than good aspects will help. Just some thoughts . . .

]]> By: john schell http://www.thoughtsfromchris.com/2009/01/27/what-do-i-think-about-the-emerging-church/comment-page-1/#comment-708 john schell Wed, 28 Jan 2009 20:48:59 +0000 http://www.thoughtsfromchris.com/?p=140#comment-708 WOW very well thought threw and said Pastor. Being caught up in some of these movements myself and following the leadership of these movements, who was I to question that they were not hearing from God, for I was a babe in Christ at the time and was hungering for all that God had. Every one of them had there extremes and error's that I did not see at the time. There was a nugget and a element of truth in each one. As I look back, what I realize now is the leadership of that movement had heard from Lord for the most part, but had went to seed on that teaching and possibly always looking for more revelation, to enhance what was already being said. In all of these movements there were individuals and familys that were hurt, and some times loosing loved ones and following some prophecy across the country to find out that it was not God. I praise God that he allowed me to go threw some of these movement's, and he protected me along the way. Many years ago I was questioning God on all the thing's I had been taught and by many excellent teachers. As I continued to seek God he showed me something very simple one day. When you are so close to something you can not see it as well as if you were to take a step back and take a look. If I hold my hand 3 in. away from my face I can not see it as well if I hold it a foot away. What the Lord was impressing up on me was to take a number of steps back and take a look at all what I beleived and embraced. It was amazing, and it did not happen over night, but threw prayer and going back to the word I found alot of things that I beleived were twisted, scripture taken out of context, very close to the truth and unblibical. I started a bible study 3 years ago with some men and the theme that God gave for the study was ( Is there subtantial scripture to support what you beleive). All and all these movements were apart of my traning that I might be able to help others and see just how mere men following God, with good intension's could be swayed, be lifted up with pride or be tricked by satan's devises. In my heart I always want to be open to correction and rebuke if need be, that I could have that balance in my life that would glorify God. js WOW very well thought threw and said Pastor. Being caught up in some of these movements myself and following the leadership of these movements, who was I to question that they were not hearing from God, for I was a babe in Christ at the time and was hungering for all that God had. Every one of them had there extremes and error’s that I did not see at the time. There was a nugget and a element of truth in each one. As I look back, what I realize now is the leadership of that movement had heard from Lord for the most part, but had went to seed on that teaching and possibly always looking for more revelation, to enhance what was already being said. In all of these movements there were individuals and familys that were hurt, and some times loosing loved ones and following some prophecy across the country to find out that it was not God. I praise God that he allowed me to go threw some of these movement’s, and he protected me along the way. Many years ago I was questioning God on all the thing’s I had been taught and by many excellent teachers. As I continued to seek God he showed me something very simple one day. When you are so close to something you can not see it as well as if you were to take a step back and take a look. If I hold my hand 3 in. away from my face I can not see it as well if I hold it a foot away. What the Lord was impressing up on me was to take a number of steps back and take a look at all what I beleived and embraced. It was amazing, and it did not happen over night, but threw prayer and going back to the word I found alot of things that I beleived were twisted, scripture taken out of context, very close to the truth and unblibical. I started a bible study 3 years ago with some men and the theme that God gave for the study was ( Is there subtantial scripture to support what you beleive). All and all these movements were apart of my traning that I might be able to help others and see just how mere men following God, with good intension’s could be swayed, be lifted up with pride or be tricked by satan’s devises. In my heart I always want to be open to correction and rebuke if need be, that I could have that balance in my life that would glorify God. js

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